Emotional eunuchs. What do all of you think? Or do they like listening to girls go on and on about boys as if they are the best girl friend? I don't understand why these guys don't correct the situation, it is simple.
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New Orleans
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Unsu...
really depends... nice guys could be just friends.. or they could be more... if there is a attraction there well it could become more. Just my Point of View.
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I think its a matter of perspective. The Nice Guy (from the perspective of the female) is what is created when the guy is attracted to the girl but the girl isn't attracted to the guy.
If the guy (or girl) continues to maintain the relationship on some other level (ie: friendship) then The Nice Guy is created.
It is totally possible I am painting with way too broad a brush. :) -
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In my view after great study of this so called nice guy there are a few solutions. One is dump the girl who only wants to be friends and move on so you shall not be burdened with her stories. Two don't be a welcome mat.
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I suppose the question is/becomes is there something wrong with being a girl's friend? Or is the inevitable "dick in the glass" just too unbearable for the hetrosexual male these days?
I would suggest that my most valued opinions are those from my male friends (most of whom I would call 'Nice Guys'). Some of them are people I've dated in the past and it didnt' work out, and some of them are people I've only ever been friends with. . . but truth be told, if I want real advice on something, ESPECIALLY about something having to do with my SO, my male friends are the go to. If you want advice on how to fuck someting up beyond repair, ask a woman. If you want to fix it, ask a man. If you want to discuss it over coffee for hours on end, you need to find a third option. (usually an effeminate gay man will suffice in a pinch. :P)
Anway, that might be offensive to some, but it's how I feel.
~smile~
Meredith
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One is dump the girl who only wants to be friends and move on so you shall not be burdened with her stories.
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l'm with Meredith. l think it's fucked up to ditch someone for the general reason that they don't want to date and/or sleep with you. Ever met a chick you just don't dig? She's just not your type, or maybe you and she are so different that you don't see it working out. Wouldn't it be pretty fucked up if she dumped you as a friend and simply stopped calling? Wouldn't you feel used? Wouldn't you feel like you were being punished for something you simply couldn't help, and that had nothing whatsoever to do with them being great people?
That's basically what you seem to be saying, which is essentially, 'if she doesn't jump to and give you what you want, dump that bitch.'
For a nice guy, that's a pretty ugly implication.
Forgive me if l'm being redundant, since l haven't read the whole thread yet. l just needed to comment on the irony here. -
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Hi Ali,
good to see you posting again.
to disagree (and if you remember conversation in Brother * Sister) and to remove the emotional hyperbole if you rewrite it as:
if your emotional desire and her's are unbalanced, you have to protect yourself. removed yourself from the situation until your hopes and desires towards her dissipates. Trying "be friends" doesn't work, because that's just going to keep your hopes alive. As long as you are hoping, you will not be truly friends, you will just be hung up emotionally on her. that's going to eventually eat away at you and your heart. If you let that unbalanced situation go long enough odds are it will turn to anger and hate. So Get away, anything less is you being in denial and filled with pointless and self destructive hope. think some time in the future, you might be in a balanced state and the situation may arise in which you can in fact be friends, but it isn't now and don't pretend that it will be so.
Taz
ps, yup, trying to get rid of a misplaced hope myself now... -
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That l get. Had he worded it that way, it would be a different conversation. My repsonse was in regards to his partiular interpretation, as it were. l happen to think both are valid.
So if both DO hold some weight, why does being friends keep your hope alive? Do we or do we not control our own circumstances and interpretations? ls is her problem one is hung up? Should she suffer because he lacks the maturity to maintain a friendship and still get his own emotions in check? l have a blog that's all about misplaced hope, and it includes how close l came to ruining it, but his friendship was worth it to me to get over my feelings and work it out on my own, rather than in his presence.
l know what you're saying. l just don't see why the person one claims to love or care for should pay for something they didn't knowingly or deliberately bring about. Seems like that's not their issue, but yours. lf it helps to justify it as taking a break, and prevents resentment and anger, awersome, l'm all for that. But l just think parties need to be clear on what they can do to either hurt or improve the situation, and which one they prefer. -
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"So if both DO hold some weight, why does being friends keep your hope alive? "
because you are constantly around the person you are attracted too, reinforcing the attraction. the aspects of the other person that you are attracted to are still there to be attracted to, there isn't a little command prompt in my head that says "delete all attraction to this person? y/n"
"Do we or do we not control our own circumstances and interpretations?"
I'll take grey areas for a thousand...both of those are true and it's a sliding scale that varies with time. how successfully a person is at controlling their own interpretations is never a cut a dried answer. and at least for the bulk of people I know, they will be healthy for clean brakes that long messy drawn out ones.
" ls is her problem one is hung up?"
Depends on how much she values the friendship. the deeper her attachment to the friendship is, the deeper that is it her problem that the relationship has become unbalanced. it's not a problem she actively choose, nor is one she can actively solve, but in any relationship between two people the choices and emotions of the one can and do affect the other.
"Should she suffer because he lacks the maturity to maintain a friendship and still get his own emotions in check?"
replace the hypothetical couple of people with a friendship/romantic unbalance with a hypothetical romantic couple ending their relationship. the dumper and dumpee. would you so whole heartedly try to influence that breaking up couple to remain friends? the situations are almost directly connected in terms of how people respond. Either one of them could end on a mature note if it ended with a "sorry, we can't continue like this and I would prefer to see it end sharply rather than continue".
"l have a blog that's all about misplaced hope, and it includes how close l came to ruining it, but his friendship was worth it to me to get over my feelings and work it out on my own, rather than in his presence."
For me personally, "friend" sometime lacks distinctions that I have in my own head. There are some women, who I successfully have returned to a friends level after time and space to get rid of being hung up on them. but I can't think of any that returned to a deep friendship.
but I do have former romantic partners that have ended up as deep friends (after a long time of recovery I might add)
"l know what you're saying. l just don't see why the person one claims to love or care for should pay for something they didn't knowingly or deliberately bring about. Seems like that's not their issue, but yours. "
no emotions between two people are just one persons issue.
"lf it helps to justify it as taking a break, and prevents resentment and anger, awersome, l'm all for that. But l just think parties need to be clear on what they can do to either hurt or improve the situation, and which one they prefer."
oh sure, if you prefer the nuanced view.
What would your response to a male friend (who you wanted only as a friend) be if they said, I am sorry I can't stand to be around you cause i am so deeply into you, that just hanging out hurts. I have to not give any energy or attention to you in order to recover."
seriously I am curious.
Taz
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Thanks Deb.
That article reminds me somewhat of myself except I rarely approached a girl because I was so shy. I suppose there are different kinds of nice guys and maybe the kind expected here is not only nice because he has low self esteem. But read on to see another side of what nice guys do to sabotage themselves and destroy potential relationships.
When I did have a date (rarely), I was so sure of eventual rejection I could not respond to even obvious signals. It didn't matter how much I was attracted to her or how well it seemed to be going, I was certain if I were to reveal my feelings she would end the relationship. Thus the result is the nice guy hurts even the one who could be a perfect match.
I'm probably an extreme case and I still have great difficulty expressing my emotions. It's the way I see it now after many years.
Rex
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Basically, what that article said in conclusion was, "Your time will come". News flash, poindexter.
a) Her time has come now. Yours just MIGHT come, later.
b) "The bad boy thinks he is the hotshot, but in the end it's the nice guy who prevails." - wrong again, usually. Usually the bad boy sires the children while the nice guy raises them, and often doesn't get to have any of his own. The bad boy is the hot shot. Look at the number of kids he's made. Biology absolutely favors him.
That's bad enough until you find that by the time you get with "her", she has tons of baggage from having been screwed and screwed over by bad boys, and guess who has to clean up behind that? Yup, you. And don't you dare bring your baggage out. Then you're not a nice guy any more - you're an evil, scum of the earth angry hostile male.
So what happens to the nice guy who is forced to hold all that inside and is unable to ask the simple, obvious question "where were you when I was younger"? I leave that up to you, the reader. -
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"That's bad enough until you find that by the time you get with "her", she has tons of baggage from having been screwed and screwed over by bad boys, and guess who has to clean up behind that? Yup, you. And don't you dare bring your baggage out. Then you're not a nice guy any more - you're an evil, scum of the earth angry hostile male. "
EVERYONE has baggage. I don't care who you are, you have some. You might just have a carry on when someone else has a trunk's worth. We can pay mental health professionals to help us deal with our luggage and ask our partners to help us through that if they, male or female, aren't willing to help then maybe you need to consider if the relationship is really worthwhile. Unless someone is as cold and selfish as the day is long, I somehow doubt they'd take the "screw you and YOUR problems" attitude. And who would chose to be with someone like that anyway? If you don't the person well enough to see that, that's your own fault for making a bad choice. -
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I really like the ideals you espouse here, and nothing you said was wrong, but men with baggage generally are looked upon more harshly. You won't find many people - men or women - out there who want to deal with any amount of a guy's baggage.
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Examples? Instances? I just don't get where you're coming from because from my experience there are just as many men/women who don't want to deal with a woman's baggage as there are women/men who don't want to deal with a man's baggage.
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The martyr/victim mentality you seem to roll with inspires a phrase Catholics here will be familiar with, "Get off the cross, we need the wood."
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Why is it that when a man complains about something, you call it the "martyr/victim mentality"?
Men get no sympathy from anyone. Women get tons of sympathy about everything they go through.
These double standards need to end. But since you are going to defend these double standards and you refuse to budge, I've put you on ignore. That'll solve the problem permanently.
Perhaps other men who are flat out sick and tired of your double standards should do the same. It's about time we had a chance to speak our piece without women telling us to shut up. -
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"Men get no sympathy from anyone. Women get tons of sympathy about everything they go through."
Yeah, let's try a few phrases on.
"Damn, woman, you're being a bitch. ls it time for your period?"
"Quit crying, Jesus. Don't you ever stop fucking crying?"
"lt's not my fault you got pregnant/raped/sexually harassed, that's your issue."
"These double standards need to end."
Oh, the irony.
"But since you are going to defend these double standards and you refuse to budge, I've put you on ignore. That'll solve the problem permanently."
This kind of conflict is a good one to watch. Someone brings up some valid points and asks for some reasonable clarification. You don't like the answer, and ignore. l realize this post is old, but l'm curious as to how you'll respond to my perceptions here, and if l'll get the same treatment.
"Perhaps other men who are flat out sick and tired of your double standards should do the same. It's about time we had a chance to speak our piece without women telling us to shut up."
Boy, you ARE bitterly and gleefully going nuts with that wide brush you're painting us all with, aren't you.
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You won't find many people - men or women - out there who want to deal with any amount of a guy's baggage.
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You say that like people think it's a frolic in the park to deal with womens'. l'm not sure why you're making it into a 'who has it worse' thing, unless it's simply to reinforce a mentality that makes it easier to cope.
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My opinion now..
I think Nice Guys need an Edge about them that is rough..otherwise the girlies just get bored or something...
Nice is all safe and stuff, but you need a bit of the unknown factor to make it interesting..Not saying that one should turn into a prick sporadically, just an have your own corner of "Manness" (for lack of a better word) clearly defined.
Maybe that is why I am still single....
My Two cents anyway. -
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Unsu...
I think Nice Guys need an Edge about them that is rough..otherwise the girlies just get bored or something...
May i suggest a number 5 sandpaper.
As to the Mannie comment I have had one of those, he was great he would take the girls skating and they did all sorts of things that a regular Nannie didn't want to do, like make fireworks and bombs out of household shit... You have to clean up after them more than you would a Nannie, but I highly reccomend them over a Nannie they seem to have their priorities on the child rather than the opinon of the parent.... -
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I can't use Number 5 sandpaper on my designer stubble
What with the facial treatments and all, it would destroy my skin..never mind the the laser treatment to shape the beard properly... -
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I am telling you become a jerk and girls will like you.
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This has gotten too complicated. Duane was right, nice guys become emotional eunuchs... or you see them on the news for going postal at work.
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But if I am fifty with the job I have now, its #2
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They do, actually. They want to be respected as sexual beings just like everyone else is. They want to be appreciated, and so does everyone else.
Nice guys want to hear some consistency in principle behind "men are jerks". Namely, when you hear "men are jerks" it doesn't make sense to a nice guy when he turns around and sees that players are still playing out in the open, and there are still love letters being written to scumbags like Charles Manson, while nice guy bashers are out there making up lies like "nice guys are passive aggressive jerks" just to justify their own prejudices.
Nice guys want help, and they want a way out. But their definition of "a way out" is defined partially as "for God's sake, practice what you preach."
Now granted, there are plenty of problems that nice girls have with men who mistreat them, and I'd like to personally apologize for what those men do. I'm not here to claim that nice women don't suffer, too. I'm just saying that nice guys deserve some sympathy as well.
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I think that the words i used to describe manness are assetive and forward. As the guy you have to make the first move (usually anyway), you have to approach the girl, make the connection, ask for the date/ This also means that you get to be the one shot down.
I have learned over the years not to take going down in flames personal, it is just a I am not that into you thing. I might sulk for that night but no longer then a night. I have evn had fun getting shot down on one or two occasions (if the girl has a kind heart and a good sense of humor it ca even be funny).
I think that its important that we (as men we) not talke ourselves too seriously. Dating should be about fun, but like gambling it also involves an element of risk. It means you can get burnt, but gamblings no fun when you dont bet.
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"I think that the words i used to describe manness are assetive and forward. As the guy you have to make the first move (usually anyway), you have to approach the girl, make the connection, ask for the date/ This also means that you get to be the one shot down."
Actually I decided it wasn't worth the aggravation. If she requires all that of you, the relationship won't survive anyway. Not every guy can be assertive and forward, and being something you're not is invariably the ruin of a relationship. My wife actually saw me and called me up.
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I say you are responsible for whatever you put up with. How you view yourself really is how the rest of the world is going to view you. If you don't value yourself, you project that.
In my experience, half the time men who get relegated to the "nice guy" purgatory are chasing after women who are out of their league. Consider doing something to improve your chances. Learn to dress better, walk with more confidence, brush your hair, brush your teeth, most of all work on your confidence.
If you let someone walk all over you, who's fault is it ultimately? If you say this continually happens with women, you are the unifying factor in that. Stand up for yourself, it's sexy. -
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Well said. The hardest issue is confidence. How does a guy work on that?
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i can answer that, you risk failure, step up, be prepared to look like an ass, or make enemies, , and usually, you fake it. yep, fake it, if you screw up well, do it again, and again, annnnnd again, till you get some successes under your belt, stop thinking about failure, literally STOP, dont do it, dont think, just act, the entire mating process is mostly a hindbrain process anyway, if youre thinking too much, youre doing somehitng wrong, most jerks will tell you that, they NEVER think, they dont care either, if they blow it with some girl, well, so what? theres always another, in other words, they have the right attitude when it comes to failure, they never lose their hard won confidence, EVER. they never think of the consequences, and anyone working on confidence cant afford to either. Im not supoorting jerks rights ort anything but im saying theyve got SOMETHING nice guys dont that allows them to keep their confidence, and its worth learning. the trick is, start small, nothing that will cause a panic reaction, if you get that, back out gently, and start again later, when your confidence is up learn to chit chat ,idly, about nothing, learn to relax in the face of pressure, and make sure that your confidence is genuine, or at least genuine LOOKING, after a while like any other skill, if you practice, you will get better, wihtout practice, then you wil continue to fail, and faliure begets failure, but success begets sucess, so dont stop trying, just keep at it, and keep a positve mindset NO MATTER WHAT.it takes a lot of strength actually to pull that off, you might be surprised at how much goes into a confident interaction, but if you can fake it without too much risk of panic meltdown, then you should, In short, just do it, forget all that crap about , just being yourself, if yourself sucks at it, this advice is worthless, just learn how to fake it, and eventually you will get it down to a science, but keep your head up and never let em see you sweat.good luck.
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You know, I recognize a lot of what you're saying in my own quests to understand the dynamics of self confidence, and I picked a lot of that up at a young age, but now I think I'm more able to explain my position about all of this.
Guys are required to do a lot more than women are required to do in a courtship, and that's what sours the entire dating and mating game for me. I've never liked dating because I was the one doing all the work, and I eventually lost interest in the woman I was dating and ultimately decided it wasn't worth it any more. I was about to crawl into a hole and go celibate after one last big and unsuccessful personal ad blitz when Ms. Right finally made a move on me. If she hadn't come calling I would have retreated behind work and my Xbox.
Nice guys need to be valued as who they are instead of being constantly told they need to become something else. Eventually that facade will fall and the real him will have to be dealt with. Just like when she wakes up without all her make-up ...
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50% OF SEX APPEAL IS WHAT YOU HAVE 50% IS WHAT OTHERS THINK YOU HAVE!
i THINK EVERYONE CAN DO THE SAME FOR CONFINDANCE
MAKE PEOPLE THINK WERE MORE CONFIDANT THEN WE ARE
ALSO THE COMMENT ABOUT HOW CAN GUYS FEEL MORE CONFINDANT -- DO IT THE SAME WAY GIRLS DO
DRESS BETTER - BETTER HYGENE ETC.. MAYBE YOU'LL GET COMPLIMENTS AND THAT WILL HELP WITH SELF ESTEEM, AND STOP MENTALLY PUTTING YOURSELF DOWN AND BEING NEGATIVE YOU ARE YOUR OWN WORST CRITIC-- DO YOU THINK THE GIRLS WHO LOOK FRUMPY AND UNKEPT HAVE HIGH SELF ESTEEM??
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Before we start, please be warned that this post is quite long winded...but I'd like to think it can be a LESSON IN SELF-RESPECT:
YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT YOU PUT UP WITH.....That right there, is pretty much the ANSWER TO THE RIDDLE, I believe...The "NICE GUY" thing that's being debated here seems to be the "NICE TO A FAULT" kind of thingy....It took me a lot of years, a lot of failure, confusion, heartache, embarrassment, the END is LISTLESS...I've been out of my league, and have been around women who were out of MY league.... I'll take it back to the line that LESLIE here hit on, because I had an experience that's perfect for it...Most recent Dating experience was actually the OPENING STAGES of what thought might've been a relationship with some STAYING POWER to it...Was in a club checking out some bands and caught her RED-HANDED sneaking off with some guy that was working on her from the time he walked in the place...She was so CAUGHT UP in her little SNEAKY-GIRL WORLD that she wasn't paying attention to me...
so I'm pretty sure she didn't know she got caught!!! The "SOFT" Nice Guy lets this go: forgives her, makes EXCUSES for her, etc...But, and not even 2 or 3 years ago, I wouldn't have had the self-esteem to DO this, I simply finished my LAST DRINK, walked out the door, headed back home to Ballard and the company of TRUE and DESERVING COMPANY, and simply DISOWNED the sneaky little critter WITHOUT GIVING IT A SECOND THOUGHT!!!! I'll quote LESLIE AGAIN: "How you view yourself is really how the rest of the world is going to view you. If you don't value yourself, you project that." What that ALSO means, I believe is that IF YOU DO value yourself, you project THAT, too. And I really don't care HOW MUCH POTENTIAL a relationship has...SELF-RESPECT is EVERYTHING....The nice guys that DON'T "finish last" are the ones who DON'T PUT UP WITH TOO MUCH...The ones that DRAW THE LINE AT ATTACKS on their self-respect...That doesn't mean turning into a BASTARD, or a SHUT-IN, because, as tempting as that can be, it's NOT HEALTHY...And I've noticed from paying CLOSE ATTENTION to this particular thread (even though I don't POST COMMENTS too often), especially from the FEMALE perspective that I'm on the right track....The SELF-LOATHING THING RUINS EVERYTHING....The nice guys who figure out how to RESPECT THEMSLEVES and STAND UP for who and what they are WITHOUT LOSING THEIR "NICE GUY" THING will eventually rise to their proper level...Thanx, LADIES...And Especially LESLIE...That ONE LINE sums it all up PERFECT...Thanx for your time, everyone...
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