Most nice guys have died out because they feel so abused by the women and the climate around them.
Yes, women like nice guys as a shoulder to cry on, about their asshole boyfriends and so forth, but will continue to go out with another asshole, in an ongoing cycle.
Women complain about being used by players, and yet go back for more. Women bitch about their abusive Marine boyfriends, but yet go straight for another brainless dick in a uniform.
After quite a few years of observation, women say that they want a man who loves them, treats them right, treats them like a true woman, etc. But they always go out with the knuckle-dragging neanderthal who treats them like shit.
Nice guys are trapped in the same ongoing cycle, like women are. Nice guys purpetually hear the line "you're cute, but..." and stand by and watch the women, who turn to them, go through more pain, hurt and bruises.
I am one of those mythical nice guys from the UK who always was there for female friends, who had to stand by and see those friends go through hell. I would always offer insight and a neutral opinion. And yes, I always heard that old chestnut when women say "I wish my bf was more like you." Sometimes I hated hearing them say it, as I always knew that if a guy like me asked them out, they'd run for the nearest jerk.
One girl I warned dearly about her obsession on Marines, who continually used her, even several raped her in Marine bar. But still she kept going for the same assholes and going to the same Marine bar where she was attacked.
I warned her that Marines would be the death of her, and sadly it came true. A Marine did kill her.
I had to stand by and watch that girl's ashes being scattered.
I loved that girl dearly, she was the one girl I moved from the UK to the USA to be with. Yet for how strong our friendship she was afraid of taking that small step to the love I offered her.
At that point I decided to no longer get involved, as I got tired of the pain that came with being a "nice guy". I got tired of picking up someone else's pieces, but being cast aside when the next jerk showed up.
Even when I was a nice guy, I was constantly being accused of only trying to get a leg-over, because in Los Angeles, women have no concept that there are nice guys, as they have this inbuilt paranoia that every man is out to fuck them or attack them. Then again Hollywood is a place where everybody uses each other and sex and relationships have long since seperated and that sex is just a hobby for a lot of men, and women.
Yes, I still open doors every now and again. I still say hi, even though most women in LA look down at nice guys as if they were worse than the dirt underneath their shoes.
I just took myself out of the loop of relationships and just concentrate on surviving in this hellhole of a town, ie Hollywood.
To all those women that wonder why nice guys are: We still exist, as there seems to be many that visit this forum. We just keep ourselves a little more guarded. We still will open doors and offer nice complimentary words, just as long be nice back to us, in return.
I can say, hand on heart, I am happy for a woman to accept me as I am, with all my merits and flaws. I may be a bit of a geek, I may wear glasses, I may have long hair. But I care about those around me, who I call friends, and I still give help to those who need it.
Yes, women like nice guys as a shoulder to cry on, about their asshole boyfriends and so forth, but will continue to go out with another asshole, in an ongoing cycle.
Women complain about being used by players, and yet go back for more. Women bitch about their abusive Marine boyfriends, but yet go straight for another brainless dick in a uniform.
After quite a few years of observation, women say that they want a man who loves them, treats them right, treats them like a true woman, etc. But they always go out with the knuckle-dragging neanderthal who treats them like shit.
Nice guys are trapped in the same ongoing cycle, like women are. Nice guys purpetually hear the line "you're cute, but..." and stand by and watch the women, who turn to them, go through more pain, hurt and bruises.
I am one of those mythical nice guys from the UK who always was there for female friends, who had to stand by and see those friends go through hell. I would always offer insight and a neutral opinion. And yes, I always heard that old chestnut when women say "I wish my bf was more like you." Sometimes I hated hearing them say it, as I always knew that if a guy like me asked them out, they'd run for the nearest jerk.
One girl I warned dearly about her obsession on Marines, who continually used her, even several raped her in Marine bar. But still she kept going for the same assholes and going to the same Marine bar where she was attacked.
I warned her that Marines would be the death of her, and sadly it came true. A Marine did kill her.
I had to stand by and watch that girl's ashes being scattered.
I loved that girl dearly, she was the one girl I moved from the UK to the USA to be with. Yet for how strong our friendship she was afraid of taking that small step to the love I offered her.
At that point I decided to no longer get involved, as I got tired of the pain that came with being a "nice guy". I got tired of picking up someone else's pieces, but being cast aside when the next jerk showed up.
Even when I was a nice guy, I was constantly being accused of only trying to get a leg-over, because in Los Angeles, women have no concept that there are nice guys, as they have this inbuilt paranoia that every man is out to fuck them or attack them. Then again Hollywood is a place where everybody uses each other and sex and relationships have long since seperated and that sex is just a hobby for a lot of men, and women.
Yes, I still open doors every now and again. I still say hi, even though most women in LA look down at nice guys as if they were worse than the dirt underneath their shoes.
I just took myself out of the loop of relationships and just concentrate on surviving in this hellhole of a town, ie Hollywood.
To all those women that wonder why nice guys are: We still exist, as there seems to be many that visit this forum. We just keep ourselves a little more guarded. We still will open doors and offer nice complimentary words, just as long be nice back to us, in return.
I can say, hand on heart, I am happy for a woman to accept me as I am, with all my merits and flaws. I may be a bit of a geek, I may wear glasses, I may have long hair. But I care about those around me, who I call friends, and I still give help to those who need it.
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What I was aiming at saying is that nice guys do become tired of being there watching women getting hurt physically and emotionally, and having to pick up the pieces.
There comes a point when a nice guy can only stand by for so long, before becoming desensitised to it, and becoming like the other jerks, or just lock themselves away from the rest of the world.
Luckily I never went either way. I learned to not wear my heart on my sleeve and that eventually my time will come. Until that day, other things require my attention. -
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Whoa, man. There is a different way to look at it. Your attitude may SEEM justified, but not ALL women are like the ones you seem to be drawn to. Being sensitive and having compassion are worth holding onto - you should be proud to be a nice guy. Why shut down and go cold?
I'm with you on the whole "other things require my attention" thing, however. I, too, know it'll happen when it happens. The best way to find a woman who likes you for who you are, is into some of the same stuff you are, and has her s**t together? Do what you like to do, try things you never have, and meet LOTS of people - men AND women. It seems to work for me.
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Unsu...
<i>I may be a bit of a geek, I may wear glasses, I may have long hair.</i> Hey...for some of us...that's a turn on. :)
Seriously though, a couple of things pop up for me here. First, please don't lump all women into this stereotype. I know a ton of really nice girls who are looking for a really nice man. I'm a nice girl and I have always liked nice men. I'm happily married to a nice man that accepts *me* 100%. I consider myself very lucky every day. I continue to try to hook up my nice girl friends and nice guy friends.
One of the things that keeps jumping out at me here is that people tend to use "nice" as a way of saying "I'm a nice guy, so I put up with women's shit because I don't value myself enough to tell her to shove it".
It sounds more like you are *still* a nice guy, but you simply became tired of letting *other* people using you. I'm sorry about your friend...that's something that no one should have to go through ever.
I don't think nice guys are a dying breed. There are plenty of them around me in my daily life. Always have been. Why *anyone* would want to be around people that treat them like shite is beyond me. Well, actually, it's all down to self-worth, respect and all. If you don't believe you are worthy of a loving relationship *and* you don't love yourself, you are never going to find a positive loving relationship.
And that..is the mistake that men and women make. Another person can be an enhancement to your life, but they're not going to make you happy. Only you can make yourself happy. If you hate yourself, don't believe in yourself, you'll only attract those who are co-dependent on that type of relationship.
Gah! I was going to try to be witty and amusing and I failed miserably. *smile* I hope I made some sense.
-Dani -
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The mythical nice guys are thinning out because they're not nice guys, just passive-aggressive jerks. And so, they're only interested in those woman who their aggressive alpha jerk brothers find desireable, and pass up on all good opportunities to date anyone outside that game. But in that game, they always lose to the alpha jerks. Bitching is the last resort of the MNG.
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Well, I'm not bitching.
As I stated, I'm still a nice guy, I just keep myself detatached and don't allow myself to get sucked into the emotional baggage and whinnings of women, when they cry on my shoulder.
And at the end of it all, it's the women who cry on our shoulders that are the biggest whinners. If they wanted someone to treat them better, who loved them and not treated them like crap, then THEY can break the cycle. They can realise that there is more than dating a guy just because he's a hunk, he's studly and he carries a bulge of money in his pants. (not stereotyping here, just generalising the women of Los Angeles.)
Besides, since being in Los Angeles, I've found that I don't have much time for a relationship, so I have no time to chase.
And to correct you, assaf, I'm not interested in the types that go for assholes. The only reason I really cared for the girl who died, is because we clicked well. We had a serious connection. She just had a problem of listening to a friend who kept always pushing her in directions which were bad, causing her to live the life her friend wanted to live before she got married. -
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I just came back from a weekend in LA, and for the most part it looked like a surface dating scene, with very few exceptions. But so is SF, unless you know where to look. It's a huge meteropolitan area, so I'm sure there are some good scenes there, if you know where to find them. Lesson learned and implemented in five other big cities. Only thing I will categorically say about LA is that they have no clue how to drive or park ;-)
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You made perfect sense. :-)
Actually I value myself a lot. I like to think I can still make a difference in this emotionally devoid land, that is Los Angeles. I try to show that not all men are assholes, that we're not all looking for a body count, conquests, and that women are appreciated and cared for.
Just I did get tired of people trying to take advantage of me. Then again, that's another sport out here in Hollywood. lol
And, I found a long time ago, life is too short to hate yourself. After seeing someone you care for die, it makes you relaise that sometimes no matter what you do, you can't change things, so stop fighting it. -
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Unsu...
That's a very good thing. So many people devalue themselves. I do understand that the culture of where you are is rough in the aspect of finding quality.
It's just rough being lumped in with "you women" all the time in this community. -
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The Two Things about Women
1. When complaining, they don’t want your advice, they want your sympathy.
2. Don’t you dare tell them you can sum them up with just Two Things. -
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reply to the two things about women,
1. I just thought they wanted a sounding wall.
2. But its so much fun to see them react to summing them up. -
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"1. I just thought they wanted a sounding wall."
Bingo.
We don't want/need you solving our problems, we just feel better about things after venting. To interrupt a woman who is venting and present a solution is basically saying "You must be too dumb to have thought of this solution already, so I'm cutting you off to prove how manyl and smart I am". Not the best message to send if you want her to like you :)
When a woman's venting, JUST LISTEN. Don't give advice, don't stop her to tell a story of a similar thing happening to you, just be sympathetic. Believe me, she will love you so much more when she's done. -
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If it doesn't start with "what do you think I should do?" then it's probably not a plea for help.
But it's a two way communication gap. If the guy is just trying to be helpful, and venting is all the help you need, clarify it. And if it's his way of dealing with cognitive dissonance, recognize it.
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There was a lot of discussion about this in gIRLS wHO iNTIMIDATE bOYS.
If you don't want suggestions, don't burden me with your problems. Just because I offer suggestions does not mean that I think you're stupid.
In fact, it's myopic of you to assume that I am being arrogant, when I am earnestly attempting to be helpful and compassionate in the manner that suits me best.
I'm a great listener; ask anyone who knows me well. But I draw the line at "venting," aka pointless bitching. That is simply inconsiderate. I am not your emotional dumping ground.
Communication is a two-way street. Every woman I've been involved with has seen this fact very clearly.
Finally, kowtowing to someone's "need" for venting may serve the purpose of placing a band-aid on the problem, similar to superficial validation. However, in the long run it merely serves to perpetuate the same destructive behavior problems through positive reinforcement. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.Dr. Yo I understand your drawing the line at "venting". But sometimes that is all that people want to do. I know I want to "vent" with my friends. I also am intelligent enough to know that it is not the solution. Two way communication is always a better way to solve a problem, but "venting" helps too. Some people are more highly stressed and need to "vent" before discussion. That is just my experience and opinion.
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.Something I learned, unfortunately quite late in life. After the venting (at that point, really pointless bitching) was getting tiring, and the "no venting rule" turned into not being present, I decided to just be cognizant of how it makes me feel, inspect my boundaries and make a decision based on that. The emotional dump listener seem to have disappeared the same way as the "fix it" listener.
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Well my listeners are my close friends. They are still around, and I am actually really good at not "venting". But on rare occassion I actually do. Its kind of nice to just vent, at least for me. Those friends are still there, and we discuss things after I am done venting. It is a two way street, I am their sound wall on occassion. Its just the way it has been. An accepted part of my friendship with certain people.
I see your point, and will definately contemplate on it. Thanks. -
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Venting is great when it takes the load off your chest. Either as venting party, or the listener. Venting is tiring when it doesn't, when it just serves to make the other person part of your misery, without offering them any outlet or recourse. Or when it doesn't pay attention to the emotional needs of the listener. I think it's just a facade for some personality trait that I can't quite put my finger on. Which is what makes me so interested in discussions about venting ;-)
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"When a woman's venting, JUST LISTEN. Don't give advice, don't stop her to tell a story of a similar thing happening to you, just be sympathetic. Believe me, she will love you so much more when she's done. "
So can you do the other stuff after she's done then?
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"We don't want/need you solving our problems, we just feel better about things after venting. To interrupt a woman who is venting and present a solution is basically saying 'You must be too dumb to have thought of this solution already, so I'm cutting you off to prove how manly and smart I am'."
Holy crap! Where were you 6 months ago! That advice might have saved my last relationship.
*sigh*
live and learn. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.I think that the guy who posted this is still a nice guy who is learning from his experience, and doesn't wanna make him self too much of a sounding board and feels pain witnessing someone he cares about self destruct in their repetative pattern of behaviour, and for his own self preservation, is just being more cautious - and i respect you for that. It doesn't mean you're not a nice guy anymore.
I think with regards to venting, and how one should respond etc,,,i don't think we should never vent...i think it's important to have some one to talk to when things are tough, a shoulder to cry on...and that's what friends are for, but i think there should also be some balance in the equation. I think guys should be able to offer advice without being accused of thinking their women incapable of solving their own problems. I think that the people doing the venting should also be open to someone trying to help - give you advice - whatever. Again, as i said in another thread...we all just need to learn the art of communication. Advising someone who is venting in a way that is tactful and won't leave them feeling like you think they can't solve their own issues etc. Venting without completely bending someone's ear and being totally oposed to hearing their opinion or suggestions.
As i also said in other threads...if any one has any helpful books/lectures/workshops/teachers or even personal suggestions on the art or communication...pls do add them to this post...it will make a positive contribution to a problem I'm sure we all come across in some form in our lives.
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<<<<<I think with regards to venting, and how one should respond etc,,,i don't think we should never vent...i think it's important to have some one to talk to when things are tough, a shoulder to cry on...and that's what friends are for, but i think there should also be some balance in the equation. I think guys should be able to offer advice without being accused of thinking their women incapable of solving their own problems. I think that the people doing the venting should also be open to someone trying to help - give you advice - whatever. Again, as i said in another thread...we all just need to learn the art of communication. Advising someone who is venting in a way that is tactful and won't leave them feeling like you think they can't solve their own issues etc. Venting without completely bending someone's ear and being totally oposed to hearing their opinion or suggestions.>>>>>
I agree, Kitty Kat. When I need to vent about something, I don't mind my listener offering suggestions or advice. A bit of sympathy is appreciated too. :)
It's *how* they offer their feedback that makes the difference in how I receive it. For me this is true whether my listener is male or female, platonic or otherwise.
Provided they don't appear impatient, annoyed, or frustrated with me, I can't imagine confusing their input with the idea that I might be incapable of solving my own problems. Why would I? After all, wouldn't it be stupid of me not to take advantage of all the help I can get? ;)
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I can completely relate to what you are saying here. Been there and done that.
I have come to the conclusion that most women are not looking for a nice guy, but that they are looking for a really hot guy that is nice. When these women find that all most all fo the hot guys that are nice have significant others, they decide to try and change the hot guys rather than lower their standards even a little bit.
I am still a Nice Guy on occasion, but mostly I play the devil's advocate. I no longer listen to women complain about how they are abused by their jerk boyfriends. I don't need the grief -
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No one likes to hear others complain.
Just tell them that speaking badly of others causes wrinkles, and they'll stop complaining altogether.
If you were real devils advocate tell them "It's too late... you look like you've already done a little too much complaining... and donut eating for that matter." -
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So thats why I still have baby smooth skin. LOL
And no not donut eating. Thats for cops. They are probably munching on scones now a days. At least in California.
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I like to get a good debate going.
And RPGChick, I do owe you my humblest apologies. I did not mean to lump you in with the "you women". I actually see that you are a very sweet lady. I also like the fact that you're an RPGer... hard to find these days, girls who like RPG.
Maybe that's why I only have a heart for geek girls. :-)